Wednesday, 24 April 2013
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Hi all. Having tried to google this but haven't found anything on it yet. Not even on luthiers forum. I wonder how you guys all sets the truss rod for a "perfect" relief on your Dingwall basses? The reason I wonder, is that I think on ANY fanned frets instruments, that relief must be set by filing down the frets individually for each string, because each string has their max amplitube/oscillation at different points. Even if you line up the twelfth fret for both the g-string and low b-strings max height amplitude, I think the actual ARC or bow of each string will follow a different pattern, that can't be set - at all really - with [i:3ii6z5q3]just[/i:3ii6z5q3] adjusting the truss rod alone. You have to level each fret for each string to follow it accordingly while still be at the "lowest" point around that twelfth fret. While I think this is already done on Dingwall high end models, I happen to think that when I see other fanned fret necks which have their lone and only pararell fret at the 12th frets, makes me slightly wary. I run my Combustions at a slightly too much relief by the truss rod. No buzz anywhere. This technical question, is of luthiers interest only, and may seem a bit hard to grasp for the regular consumer or player of any fanned fret guitar or bass. I wonder what your thoughts on this are...
8 years ago
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#25920
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The trussrod is set no different than you do on other basses / guitars, you turn it one way to add relief or the opposite way to take some relief. It should have no relevance on fanned frets. I think... :roll:
8 years ago
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#25921
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No, of course not. It was if the truss rod adjustment is enough, which I can't think of. You must file down the frets accordlingly TOO. Say, I don't know how to explain this without drawing diagrams, but I want to at least TRY to write/explain what I mean, which has caused confusion in the past, but I'll give it a shot. The following is all hypothetical, but say you want certain scenarios done, and as low action as possible with absolutely no fret buzz at all, given your favorite string: 1. Say that you line up both the neck, fanned fret, and ALL strings to have their peak in the middle of each string. It could be easily done by first lining up all strings from the twelfth fret, which is the point halfway through any string. So to speak, you start from that point, and spread it out from there towards the nut, and the bridge 2. However, the ARC or BOW from each string when PLUCKED doesn't follow the same shape. Say the 1st g-string has a slightly narrower arc or bow along that strings which follows a certain relief, a certain bow. The 5th Low B-string have another slightly longer arc or arrow ALONG itself due to it's scale length. I do not know of any truss rod adjustment that compensate for this EQUALLY for both of these outer strings. The truss rod just "whacks" the wooden plank in either direction, completely straight, relief or backbow. I can't think of that this truss rod adjustment makes a special relief for the g-string only that is PERFECT for that string and a special unique relief for the b-string that is PERFECT for that thick long b-string. So, what gives? Then, if you have to get picky about very low action, without buzz, you should file the frets down TOO, at certain distances from either side of the twelfth fret, to accomodate perfect relief. And this just has to be different from the lo b-string and the high g-string. Mind you, this is a QUESTION I ask and not a statement. It may be so that even due to (or thanks to) different scale the g-string will vibrate as much as the thick low b-string, it is - of course - the middle of each string that takes place at the twelfth fret (Theoretically) but then, towards the nut, and towards the bridge, the arc, or bow will follow a slightly different path or CURVE really. All this is VERY VERY subtle, but I think it applies to all fanned frets instruments. The thing with pararell frets, is that this slight error is often ACROSS the neck rather than along it. So you'll have to have a different relief on the 1st g-string and the say 4th E-string too. The 4th e-string wobbles too much, and any truss rod adjustment (on a regular bass) will have the relief set for that string, but it renders the 1st g-string a little bit too high, because of the nature of truss rod adjustment. The truss rod makes a relief for all of the neck (the wooden plank, so to speak) and takes into no account how the frets are levelled or made. Hence all this manicure boutique business with the PLEK system which can file down frets for individual relief on each string, but the Plek system can't do fanned frets as of yet. Of course, one can file down the frets by hand, given enough time. --- It may be so that the ARC, or BOW, or curve isn't that different from the high g-string and the low B-string to make of any notice, but so far, when I watch all strings they seem to vibrate differently ALONG the neck. I mean, that curve if you follow it ALONG the string. Across the neck, which is the most significance of all fanned frets, the "peak" of each string seems similar, at the twelfth fret, and happen at a basically similar spot. They vibrate at a similar amplitude. Which is beneficial for low action and straight or no relief as possible.
8 years ago
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#25922
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[img:1ehdk0fs]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Guitar_Open_String_and_12th_Fret_Harmonic_Oscillation.png[/img:1ehdk0fs] Like that. The first one. The one that doesn't show the fretting on 12th fret. That diagram is overtly exaggerated, and I think that curve, bow, arc, or ballistic shape is different on any multiscale instrument. But not that different on a pararell fret one. If every string followed the exact pattern, then truss rod adjustment would be fair enough. Now instead of that diagram. Picture that the black line one above is the 5th string of a bass with fanned fret. It's that strings curve along the neck. In order to draw the 1st string of a fanned frets instrument, say in the color red, that one would have to appear INSIDE that black one, with nut and tailpiece moved inwards a bit, "inside" the larger and longest one. I do not know of any truss rod adjustment that takes measure for this. The arc and curve would be different. It's a sort of .... ratio... I don't know what really to call it.
8 years ago
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#25923
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All I know is that when I adjust the truss rod on my Dingwall, the relief is perfect for all strings.
8 years ago
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#25924
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[quote="TheEmptyCell":2yhb0169]All I know is that when I adjust the truss rod on my Dingwall, the relief is perfect for all strings.[/quote:2yhb0169] I agree.
8 years ago
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#25925
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Yes, but of course it is! Which Dingwalls do you use? I said, that it is no doubt that Dingwall has polished and levelled the frets accordingly, ON THEIR HIGHER END MODELS, would be stupid otherwise. It's not these high end Dingwalls I am asking about. Or whatever Dingwalls you have, I have no interest in it at all. I know only that on my Combustions it ain't enough. It's not about Dingwall as such, but of fanned frets as such. Regardless of Dingwalls or not. But on the Combustion, if I try to make the relief adjustment like on any other pararell fretted instrument, buzzes can be heard. When leaving the relief slightly "too much" then the buzz is gone, of course. But then it gets a little (tiny bit) too high in action at certain places. ---- So when I try to adjust my truss rod on the Combustions, it is slightly less than perfect. Of course, on ABZ and up it will be perfect, because of more proper and thorough fret dressing, height levelling and so on. To most people though, this thing is not noticeable, and people are satisfied with "good enough".
8 years ago
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#25926
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I'm not aware of any luthiers who shape each fret for the arc of each individual string whether the instrument is fanned fretted or parallel. I'm not a luthier but as I understand it, the goal is to get the all the frets to an even height or perhaps gradually slightly lower towards the upper frets on a even slope. There is no need to build an elaborate hypothesis about all fanned fret instruments based on what you think is a shortcoming of your single bass – unless of course, you just enjoy arguing about almost completely insignificant things. I don't. The difference in the arcs bewteen the different lengths of strings is not enough to warrant shaping the frets individually and per string. It would be a lot of extra, painstaking, microscopically precise work for very little gain in playability. I don't think Sheldon or anyone else does that even on the most expensive basses. And I don't blame them.
8 years ago
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#25927
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Well so be it, but I am aware of luthiers who shape each fret for the arc of each individual string. Lots of them, really. Provided they have set necks with solid wood and no truss rod, this relief can't be obtained in any other way. Same with all graphite necks with no adjustment possible. There are quite a few of them around. If this topic is way too steep or deep for you, please don't answer back with how ridiculous this thread is, and of no concern of you, or whether you have bothered at all with your basses. It seems that you reply just to ostracize one, that is getting too anal... for you. I don't replies to topics of which I don't have any interest, or get, if it ain't any issue with me or my basses, and bicker about that persons deep interests in something. Even less so, if I don't have a clue what's talked about. And if you care, if you want fret dressing for each string, each fret, on pararell, regular necks, well here it is, and it starts to catch on quite a lot among luthiers, and manufacturers alike: http://www.plek.com/en_US/home/ See the You Tube video embedded under the Technology tab. To Martin, Gibson, Warwick, G&L the levelling of a fret to hundreths of an millimeter seems to be important to them. So it seems that it is not that picky to warrant that detailed fret levelling of ... any bass really. I do not wish or think that Dingwall should obtain a machine like this. If enough time is spent you can produce that same results with hand levelling. It'll take you some time though, and you have to settle for one gauge only.
8 years ago
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#25928
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That is pretty much the repsonse I expected. I won't bother replying again.
8 years ago
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#25929
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[quote="Mats Eriksson":1zy99fah]Well so be it, but I am aware of luthiers who shape each fret for the arc of each individual string. Lots of them, really. Provided they have set necks with solid wood and no truss rod, this relief can't be obtained in any other way. Same with all graphite necks with no adjustment possible. There are quite a few of them around. If this topic is way too steep or deep for you, please don't answer back with how ridiculous this thread is, and of no concern of you, or whether you have bothered at all with your basses. It seems that you reply just to ostracize one, that is getting too anal... for you. I don't replies to topics of which I don't have any interest, or get, if it ain't any issue with me or my basses, and bicker about that persons deep interests in something. Even less so, if I don't have a clue what's talked about. And if you care, if you want fret dressing for each string, each fret, on pararell, regular necks, well here it is, and it starts to catch on quite a lot among luthiers, and manufacturers alike: http://www.plek.com/en_US/home/ See the You Tube video embedded under the Technology tab. To Martin, Gibson, Warwick, G&L the levelling of a fret to hundreths of an millimeter seems to be important to them. So it seems that it is not that picky to warrant that detailed fret levelling of ... any bass really. I do not wish or think that Dingwall should obtain a machine like this. If enough time is spent you can produce that same results with hand levelling. It'll take you some time though, and you have to settle for one gauge only.[/quote:1zy99fah] First of all, the first part of your response is way out of line. Relax. They specify to the hundredth of a millimeter because the plek machine is capable of it, not because they have determined that .51mm is clearly superior to .52mm or whatever. If you have the ability to get that exact, why not use it? That said, people have said that using a Plek is not a panacea. From reading and talking to various luthiers who use a Plek in their shop, it mainly gets used because of the massive time and labor savings. Though you can't just put a neck in and be done, often it still requires some hand working to get the neck "perfect". As you mentioned, quite a few luthiers have been and always will be able to do ridiculously good fretwork on their own.
8 years ago
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#25930
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Frets arent levelled because of whats happening at the 12th fret due to string oscillation. You level frets to stop "fretting out" on the frets above where you are holding a note, the sloping idea put forth by Smally. More relief will stop the string from banging the middle frets, but that's not a good solution. I'd have the neck as flat as possible then raise the problem string at the bridge. Through the years I have had most of my Rics, Fenders, Gibsons, etc, levelled when new. Those companies dont, or cant, take the time to tweak the frets to my liking. Only my Combustion needed the frets levelled when new. My other 5 Dingwalls were perfect out of the box.
8 years ago
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#25931
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Just read the whole topic. I see the OP is not satisfied with the action/frets on his Combustion. It's very likely the frets need levelling. Mine did. Also, dont expect the Combustion to set up like a more expensive Dingwall. They wont.
8 years ago
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#25932
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[quote="Mark L":6gyop5vt]Through the years I have had most of my Rics, Fenders, Gibsons, etc, levelled when new. Those companies dont, or cant, take the time to tweak the frets to my liking. Only my Combustion needed the frets levelled when new. My other 5 Dingwalls were perfect out of the box.[/quote:6gyop5vt] This is the - sort of - answer I asked for in the first place. That's why I asked. When all is said and done, and that the plek system is mostly used on pararell fretted instruments, will give us some hint that truss rod adjustment ONLY isn't enough, on any instrument (fanned frets or not) really. Sorry for asking. Excuse me I am about here. I will not bother you anymore, I promise.
8 years ago
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#25937
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Yeah, I have no experience with the Plek. However, I doubt that it loves guitars like my local tech does :). Anyway, with regard to my Cbass, only a couple of the frets were high, but I just had my tech level them all where it needed it. It was only a $1200 bass, so, as I said with my other ordinary basses, I like to have them done when new because they are never quite right. After the work, the Cbass played like a dream, and still does.
8 years ago
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#25939
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If you straighten out your neck to where you like your action, where are you getting buzzing?
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